Comments on: Round-trip Flash Catalyst and Flash Builder 4? http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/ Flex, AIR and Rock&Roll Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:38:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Jace http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-8693 Jace Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:02:09 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-8693 @Mihai Hey, I'm just reviewing this product for my company and just wanted to say I whole heartedly agree with @Faz This is such a step in the right direction for Adobe but totally let down by not having this feature. I'm not a MS fan, but I too have used Expression blend and VS and it just works... Adobe need to get this right or suffer the consequences I'm afraid. Which would be a real shame. The whole Flash, Silverlight and HTML5 arguments go by the wayside if developer tools (and browser support) exists to ensure we're encourage in one direction or another. The ability to have round-trip development between developer and designer is a big factor in encouraging that direction. All that said, this is an interesting idea and thank you so much for sharing it with us. Regards @Mihai

Hey, I’m just reviewing this product for my company and just wanted to say I whole heartedly agree with @Faz

This is such a step in the right direction for Adobe but totally let down by not having this feature. I’m not a MS fan, but I too have used Expression blend and VS and it just works… Adobe need to get this right or suffer the consequences I’m afraid. Which would be a real shame.

The whole Flash, Silverlight and HTML5 arguments go by the wayside if developer tools (and browser support) exists to ensure we’re encourage in one direction or another. The ability to have round-trip development between developer and designer is a big factor in encouraging that direction.

All that said, this is an interesting idea and thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Regards

]]> By: Mihai Corlan http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-6826 Mihai Corlan Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:39:42 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-6826 @Faz I don't think anyone thinks that this feature is low-priority. But I think many believe that even without this feature (yet) it is still a great tool to have it in your toolbox. @Faz

I don’t think anyone thinks that this feature is low-priority. But I think many believe that even without this feature (yet) it is still a great tool to have it in your toolbox.

]]> By: Faz http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-6824 Faz Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:45:21 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-6824 This feature is absolutely critical. I don't see how the product can succeed without it and why some users see it as a low priority feature. Having experienced the full workflow between Expression Blend and Visual Studio for Silverlight projects and seen the workflow interaction between UX/Graphics and the developers, this is what FC/FB 'must' be aiming for in v1. It's crippled without it. There I was Beta2 would have it in :-( If you can resolve this as well as the performance issues in the product it'll be a game changer. Until then, I'm a seriously frustrated fan! This feature is absolutely critical. I don’t see how the product can succeed without it and why some users see it as a low priority feature.

Having experienced the full workflow between Expression Blend and Visual Studio for Silverlight projects and seen the workflow interaction between UX/Graphics and the developers, this is what FC/FB ‘must’ be aiming for in v1. It’s crippled without it. There I was Beta2 would have it in :-(

If you can resolve this as well as the performance issues in the product it’ll be a game changer. Until then, I’m a seriously frustrated fan!

]]> By: jeff http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-5490 jeff Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:49:22 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-5490 Just thought i'd give you a perspective from a UX prototyper. My job is to prototype user-experiences as fast as possible - mainly to put into user testing. I'm presently evaluating Catalyst and Flex. Despite having a degree in computer science, my background is heavy in graphic design experience, so Catalyst looks like a great tool to me, but round-trip editing looks like it would be pretty crucial. Let me give you an example of why: 1. Made some artwork into a button component in FC and attached an interaction to it. 2. Noticed that the cursor didn't change to a hand when hovering over the button. Couldn't find a place to change this in FC. 3. Opened up the FXP in FB, found the button and added 'buttonMode="true" ' to the code. All good, hand cursor shows when over the button now. Problem is, now I want to go back into FC to add some more states. FC won't let me... I understand the problems outlined above - it would be easy to add stuff in FB that would be very difficult to represent in FC. However, I think it would be worthwhile allowing folks to take a FXP back into FC and give a warning like "This project has been modified outside FC, these modifications may make this project unstable". In a case like the one outlined above, where the code modification is fairly innocuous I can't see why FC should have any big problems. If someone is skilled enough to be modifying an FXP outside FC, they're informed enough to know how risky taking it back into FC is. Let the user make the decision. BTW, I'm seeing a lot of potential for FC to make my life a lot easier - fast enough to prototype on the fly, good enough code generation to build on later. :) - jeff Just thought i’d give you a perspective from a UX prototyper.

My job is to prototype user-experiences as fast as possible – mainly to put into user testing. I’m presently evaluating Catalyst and Flex.

Despite having a degree in computer science, my background is heavy in graphic design experience, so Catalyst looks like a great tool to me, but round-trip editing looks like it would be pretty crucial. Let me give you an example of why:

1. Made some artwork into a button component in FC and attached an interaction to it.

2. Noticed that the cursor didn’t change to a hand when hovering over the button. Couldn’t find a place to change this in FC.

3. Opened up the FXP in FB, found the button and added ‘buttonMode=”true” ‘ to the code. All good, hand cursor shows when over the button now.

Problem is, now I want to go back into FC to add some more states. FC won’t let me…

I understand the problems outlined above – it would be easy to add stuff in FB that would be very difficult to represent in FC. However, I think it would be worthwhile allowing folks to take a FXP back into FC and give a warning like “This project has been modified outside FC, these modifications may make this project unstable”.

In a case like the one outlined above, where the code modification is fairly innocuous I can’t see why FC should have any big problems. If someone is skilled enough to be modifying an FXP outside FC, they’re informed enough to know how risky taking it back into FC is. Let the user make the decision.

BTW, I’m seeing a lot of potential for FC to make my life a lot easier – fast enough to prototype on the fly, good enough code generation to build on later.

:) – jeff

]]> By: Rupert http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-5345 Rupert Thu, 09 Jul 2009 15:48:00 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-5345 Hi [warning: Adobe N00b just arrived from Java world -- please forgive :-) ] What other alternatives are there? My initial thought was similar to Georges' using separate projects. E.g. Fc project(s) have all design files never to be touched by the developers. Fb project(s) integrate them by kicking the Fc files off after injecting hooks (handlers, etc) in (perhaps by finding pre-agreed points by ID -- rather akin to a JavaScript approach). Is this possible? (could someone point me at references if this is common lore that I just haven't seen yet? please + thank you!) Cheers, R. Hi

[warning: Adobe N00b just arrived from Java world -- please forgive :-) ]

What other alternatives are there?

My initial thought was similar to Georges’ using separate projects. E.g. Fc project(s) have all design files never to be touched by the developers. Fb project(s) integrate them by kicking the Fc files off after injecting hooks (handlers, etc) in (perhaps by finding pre-agreed points by ID — rather akin to a JavaScript approach).

Is this possible? (could someone point me at references if this is common lore that I just haven’t seen yet? please + thank you!)

Cheers, R.

]]> By: Mihai Corlan http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4913 Mihai Corlan Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:45:13 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4913 @maarten I am not calling it a round-trip, but a solution for the time being. Thanks! @maarten

I am not calling it a round-trip, but a solution for the time being. Thanks!

]]> By: maarten http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4869 maarten Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:38:48 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4869 I'm sorry but this is not something that qualifies as a "round trip". It's "a probable solution" but to call it a round trip is a huge overstatement... I’m sorry but this is not something that qualifies as a “round trip”.
It’s “a probable solution” but to call it a round trip is a huge overstatement…

]]> By: Yet another Flash Catalyst / Builder workflow method | Flex Stuff by Gilles Guillemin http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4770 Yet another Flash Catalyst / Builder workflow method | Flex Stuff by Gilles Guillemin Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:37:42 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4770 [...] Mihai Corlan made a Round-trip Flash Catalyst and Flash Builder 4. Not the most straightforward ever [...] [...] Mihai Corlan made a Round-trip Flash Catalyst and Flash Builder 4. Not the most straightforward ever [...]

]]> By: Peter Molgaard http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4769 Peter Molgaard Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:37:39 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4769 Thanks Mihai for sharing this view.. its nice to have someone from Adobe accepting that we need roundtripping from day one... thanks buddy, for sharing this perspective on the situation with the limited scope for FC 1.0 Thanks Mihai for sharing this view.. its nice to have someone from Adobe accepting that we need roundtripping from day one… thanks buddy, for sharing this perspective on the situation with the limited scope for FC 1.0

]]> By: Mihai Corlan http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4765 Mihai Corlan Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:38:03 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4765 @Jeffrey Gilbert This is an excellent idea :) Why not creating an Eclipse plugin? Any one with Eclipse/Java experience wants to take up on this task? @Jeffrey Gilbert

This is an excellent idea :) Why not creating an Eclipse plugin? Any one with Eclipse/Java experience wants to take up on this task?

]]> By: Jeffrey Gilbert http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4759 Jeffrey Gilbert Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:19:15 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4759 Wanna do us a favor and have someone put together a perspective for just this task? :D Wanna do us a favor and have someone put together a perspective for just this task? :D

]]> By: Mihai Corlan http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4753 Mihai Corlan Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:53:20 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4753 @Georges Jentgen I think this is a valuable point of view. thanks for your input. @Georges Jentgen

I think this is a valuable point of view. thanks for your input.

]]> By: Georges Jentgen http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/comment-page-1/#comment-4752 Georges Jentgen Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:59:03 +0000 http://corlan.org/2009/06/23/round-trip-flash-catalyst-and-flash-builder-4/#comment-4752 Well I believe that there might be a need for being able to round trip from Fc to FB and back. But ultimately I believe that Fc will more be used for sub-projects of a big flex project. So in a recent case a designer put together a new shopfinder design for our website. Instead of putting it into the existing project, she created a new project just for the shopfinder module. So working in Fc on smaller projects eliminates the urge to have the ability to round-trip back and forth. It would be great to have it, but in my opinion, it's not the most needed feature. And because you can already show a Fc project to a customer as a working prototype you only send it to the developer as soon as it's finished. Well I believe that there might be a need for being able to round trip from Fc to FB and back. But ultimately I believe that Fc will more be used for sub-projects of a big flex project.

So in a recent case a designer put together a new shopfinder design for our website. Instead of putting it into the existing project, she created a new project just for the shopfinder module.

So working in Fc on smaller projects eliminates the urge to have the ability to round-trip back and forth. It would be great to have it, but in my opinion, it’s not the most needed feature.

And because you can already show a Fc project to a customer as a working prototype you only send it to the developer as soon as it’s finished.

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